Redefining leadership with Damien Mu
Damien Mu shares his wisdom with John Kirwan about leading an organisation through COVID-19.
Here’s what they spoke about and where you can listen.
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“COVID-19 gave us permission to lead with the head and the heart.”
Sir John Kirwan spoke to Damien Mu, CEO of AIA Australia and New Zealand. He is a well-seasoned leader having held various senior leadership positions throughout his career. Not only that, but Damien is fronting a new wave of leadership, prioritising wellbeing and operating from a place of love.
In Episode 4 of Open Minded, Damien discusses his experience of leading a 3000-strong team through the pandemic and multiple lockdowns from Melbourne, his leadership philosophies and core values, what being a father has taught him and his experiences with racism.
Melbourne was hit particularly hard by COVID-19, enduring one of the world's strictest and longest restrictions. This included a 112 day second-wave lockdown with a nighttime curfew, severely hurting businesses and restraining residents to their homes.
Watch the full video below
Find out more about what Damien and John Kirwan spoke about
He doesn’t pretend to have all of the answers, but he’s got some pretty good ones! Damien attributes many of his skills to his upbringing. Full of love, purpose and teamwork, he learnt from his family who had to work hard to live a good life after moving to Australia.
In the interview, Damien talks about getting on with it, working hard and helping each other to achieve your goals and reach your dream. “They don’t have to be big,” he said of your goals, but he’s not sitting around waiting for a lantern or the genie in the bottle.
One of the best things that have come from COVID-19 for business leaders, Damien said, is having permission to lead with both the head and the heart. He’d like his employees to have felt “cared for and safe to survive, revive and thrive” through and out the other side of this pandemic.
When you hear Damien speak, you can tell that he is completely genuine about caring for others. He discusses the importance of words and actions coming together and being congruent.
One of his beliefs about effective leadership is to be caring but demanding as a leader. Speaking to JK, he describes his passion for connecting with people, sharing how you really are, and what you're doing to get through challenges.
Damien walks the walk and talks the talk. You can find out more about the idea of caring and demanding leadership in the full episode.
Not afraid of showing vulnerability, Damien said, “I do get hurt. I did have this amazing lightbulb moment where I worked out I wasn't superman, wonder woman and I didn’t have this impenetrable armour. But, I learnt that that was okay and I accepted that I wasn’t. I think the first thing was facing into it myself and accepting that myself.”
In this episode, find out how he’s done just that and created an incredible culture of wellbeing at AIA in Australia and New Zealand.
He’s also a great leader in his children's lives, saying “the best dad is one that is present”. His daughter Bailey was like his backpack to Damien coming around everywhere with him.
Being no stranger to racism, he had an experience with his daughter experiencing racism at kindy one day. Listen to how he handled the situation with some important learnings in the full episode.
Read:
64 Shots: Leadership in a Crazy World by Kevin Roberts
Watch:
The Wizard of Oz directed by Victor Fleming
Aladdin directed by Guy Ritchie
Here’s where you can listen to Open Minded and Episode 4:
See the full transcript of the interview below
00:00:04
Sir John Kirwan: Hi everyone, it's John Kirwan here, and I'm really excited as this is my podcast called Open Minded. This podcast is interviewing inspirational people from all walks of life. You know, I want to give you the real stuff that's happening every day in the minds of these leaders. How they stay well in high-pressure roles, how they build resilience in themselves, how they look after their people, and how you can invest in yourself and your people to do mental wellbeing well. So, this is JK and this is Open Minded. So, let's go.
00:00:39
Sir John Kirwan: Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm really honoured today to be with Damien Mu, who is actually CEO of AIA Australia and New Zealand and Director, but also he's a mate of mine. We're new friends. I reached out to Damien through a friend of mine, Kevin Roberts, and asked him if he would support Mentemia in Australia. And in one second, he said yes. He was also part of the company in 2014 that launched AIA Vitality, which is a world-leading health and wellness program to support people and make healthier lifestyle choices to the Australian market.
00:01:17
Sir John Kirwan: Damien is married to Simone. He has two children, Bailey and Kai. He's passionate about people. And when you deal with Damien, you realise that it's this his biggest motivation. His passion for people and he wants to make a difference in people's lives. I think where I want to go with this today is, how do you run a big organisation and keep that in balance? So, Australian-born, upbringing was typical for many first-generation families and I'm going to dig into a little bit of that as well because it's important to talk about race and how we can break down some of the stigmas from what I would call generationally brought up with. And he loves just getting shit done if I can say. So, Damien, welcome mate. Always great to see you. We've never met in person, which seems to be this, this life we live in. But, how are you, mate? Because you are in Melbourne. It has been unbelievable. So take us through how you are and what's going on in your world right now, out of lockdown.
00:02:21
Damien Mu: Thanks JK, great to be here with you. And thanks mate, for all your support and partnership over this really interesting period in life, right? And a challenging period. And you talked about being in Melbourne, how do I feel? I mean, there's a couple of different ways I've described it. One is, I was saying to people because, in our office building here in Melbourne, we've got a number of offices. But in this particular one, we have anywhere up to 750 people, sort of in this office at any one time. And I'm during stage four, I was just in here, sort of on my own with a handful of people. And I said it's like being in the movie Home Alone. And now all of a sudden people are coming in and I'm trying to work out, am I okay with this, and are they family members, or who are they? And so, it's a bit strange, I guess, is what I'm trying to say with coming out after being locked down for such a long time. But it was a really challenging time in the second one. The first time, I think we all sort of... a bit of novelty and, you know, we're all busy sort of getting on, trying to work out how we were going to keep the lights on, keep things moving and we had a bit of a goal and a bit of a mission. And then, you know, the feeling of disappointment, of having to go back into a second lockdown, which was more severe and then not hitting the initial milestones and goals, was quite demoralising and really challenging to keep everyone together and yourself as well. And so, I think it really shows you the importance of having those little goals to look forward to and those small things. Look, but I'm feeling energised and excited, but at the same time just trying to keep a level of calm and just make sure we don't, as I think you and I have talked about, come rushing back to work, back to life and, you know, the hustle and bustle and what was there that we had built up before without trying to you know, as you and I and Kevin have talked about, come forward to work and life with a couple of positive habits and silver linings we're found through COVID.
00:04:22
Sir John Kirwan: I think the first question for me is, I was really similar to you and we didn't have the second lockdown like you did. So, you know, the first lockdown was a bit of a novelty, but the second lockdown was way more emotional for me personally. I was actually angry for a little while. So, one question that I need two answers from, how did you... what did you actually do to deal with whatever those emotions were? And I think everyone had different ones... And then how do you analyse those, deal with them yourself? And then how do you lead on those? How much influence does your emotion have on how you lead? Or do you have to bury stuff and just make another strategic decision? Because I think leadership around such a big moment in life, but then you've got to lead like, say, more than 700 people.
00:05:08
Damien Mu: Yeah, I mean, we've got three thousand people across ANZ. So, the complexity was having everyone in different locations as well and going... like, even in Australia, each state was in a different stage of lockdown, so keeping up with it and trying to keep everyone connected and informed and safe and productive was very challenging. But, the first time we sort of did was, you know, like any leader, you come out... business leader that is, we came together and we said, alright let's put our business plan in place. And I was really proud of our response to be able to get everyone essentially working from home within 10 days, 12 days. I mean, that's a massive effort when you think about the number of people, the complexity of getting the systems and processes set up. But the team did a marvellous job. The second thing I was really proud of was, we got out really quickly on trying to put a plan together, which was really about trying to take away as much fear that was created from uncertainty and people's... the change that was going on around us.
00:06:17
Damien Mu: So what we did was, yes, guess what? I'll keep it to you in the business context, JK. What we did was we came out with a plan that was going to look after our staff's wellbeing, engagement, and productivity. So, their safety, first and foremost, that we could have the business continue, so we could continue to perform the essential services and that meant also managing costs and keeping things running in a way that it was going to be prudent. And then the third one was really about how we were going to pivot and reimagine the business in this period and then out of it so that we could bring some positive learnings into it. But that sounded all really cool. But guess what? People were just clearly thinking about surviving just like we were. You know, how are we going to get through this pandemic? What is a pandemic? What do you mean I can't go out right now? I can't come to the office. My kids are going to be homeschooling. So, what we wanted to do then was really just connect. And I think this is where one of the best things of COVID for business leaders is it's allowed us permission to connect at the head and the heart and to use our heat as well.
00:07:28
Damien Mu: So, what we just did was said let's just call this plan what it is. And this is where, you know, working with Kevin and yourself and others, we just said let's just call it to survive, revive and thrive. And that plan was just really about how we were all going to connect to the emotion of the time and started the journey of you know, you said, how did you deal with these things? Was just by talking about our feelings and sharing and recognising we weren't alone and acknowledging these things and not pushing them down. So that survive, revive, thrive plan was really about how we were going to then talk about it in how people were feeling with what we needed to do as a business and make sure that people had as much certainty and clarity as we could give them. And actually, really just the honesty that we didn't have all the answers. So, that was one element. And the second one was making sure that you know, I was practicing my own discipline and I used the word discipline around waking up with an attitude of gratitude and practicing that gratitude. Secondly, setting myself little goals, both physical and mental wellbeing goals - really important. So I started walking and recognising trees and taking some breaths and practicing what I preach. And I started living life a little slower and getting a little bit of extra sleep. But then I also set myself some physical goals around how I was going to start hitting the track and getting back to trying to do some little sprints here and there. And it was all those things. But I think that the biggest one for me, JK, was connecting with people. Whether it was through this forum or other and, you know, and just sharing how we were feeling and what we were all doing, little tips, little challenges around what we were doing to get through it.
00:09:26
Sir John Kirwan: I spoke to an amazing psychiatrist about four weeks ago. I was in one of your connecting moments and he said that I do not want to read the books in three years' time about what we should have done. Right? And I thought that was... that really made me sit up and think, but if you were morphing yourself six months, what would you like your organisation to say about what you implemented during this pandemic and the lockdown?
00:10:02
Damien Mu: I think the first just simple thing I'd like them to say is that they felt cared for. And they felt safe and therefore, safe and confident to be able to do what they needed to do to survive, revive, and thrive. And that would for me be, you know, really simply at the core of it. We sort of talk about, I talk about purpose lead leadership. And for me, the two tenants are caring and demanding. So, we have to be caring if you want to be purpose lead because you actually have to care once you bring purpose into it. And the second one is demanding, you know, because, you know, despite what's going on, life has to keep moving forward and we need to continue to display that. Not display, we need to continue to move forward and we need to be able to continue to be resilient and achieve and demand more of ourselves. I use the two things of, you know, there's a thing called the Spartan Code which really drives that demand of myself to be better, to do more. But then, how I want to manifest as a leader is actually Native American Ten Commandments, which is a different way of showing that drive, which really does put demands or requires you to think of the greater good and to think about how you're leaving society in a better way and thinking of others over yourself. so, yeah.
00:11:41
Sir John Kirwan: I think there's a really, really interesting discussion here because I love that you know, you want to be making a difference and caring for people. And I sort of talk about performance care. Which one comes first? Is it the performance or the care? Do you need to perform to get the care? You know, it's a bit of a cycle, but how do you balance those business outcomes, you know, with caring for people. How do you communicate that? Because I think it's important that people know, you must perform to get the care or don't know how that mixes. I mean, it's a hard one.
00:12:18
Damien Mu: Well, I think it is. But again, it's about having a really transparent conversation and connecting, you know. If we want to achieve our purpose or if you just say take it out of a business context, if you want to achieve your dream, yeah, it's great. You've got to have the belief, you've got to have a plan, but you've got to get on with the work because it just doesn't happen. You know, I tell people, for what it's worth, I said, you know, let's keep looking for, you know, I watched Aladdin over Christmas with Kai and Bailey and, you know, it's a great movie, but I don't know if there is actually a lantern out there. So I'm not going to go and search my whole life waiting to find the lantern. If we stumble upon it? Fantastic. Or if there's a genie in the bottle that washes up on the shore of the beach, fantastic. We've made it. But let's not wait for that. We've got to get on with the work. So what I try to do is, you know, help people connect that... We can have our dream. And we do have a purpose that we absolutely believe in, but if we do, then we've got to honor that and we've got to get on with the work and we've got to deliver. We've got to hit those small goals along the way. They don't have to be big, overwhelming goals. But we've got to keep getting up and working towards those small goals and we've got to help each other. And so I connected back to that. And the other one is, JK, I have a very transparent conversation around, you know, the reality of life, right? There's these two... every organisation or any government, they all deal with this one dilemma all around, you know, there is finite resource. And that is both capital and people. And so, if we want to continue to attract the capital investment from our parents and our shareholders, we need to deliver. But that is what then enables us to continue to deliver on our purpose of making a difference in people's lives and to help champion this dream that we have around Australia and New Zealand being the healthiest and best-protected nation in the world so they can live healthier, longer, better lives because that's what it's all about in these blessed countries of ours. So, you know, that's the reality. It doesn't just fall on a tree. I don't think we should... I think honesty and vulnerability and truth are the key, right? So, just be honest about it and not try to think that people won't understand it, they do.
00:14:34
Sir John Kirwan: I totally agree with you. I spoke to a psychiatrist once about how I could parent mental health in the home. And they said to me, you know, sit down and have dinner every night, so that's really easy for me because I'm married to an Italian. But and the second thing is, show some vulnerability. And I went, woo, you know, they said you don't have to cry the first night, but it was incredible if you showed vulnerability around the dinner table, how that gives everyone permission to show vulnerability. But I would say in the business sense, it's very, very hard because there is a perception that vulnerability is weakness and the boss should be this big figure. So how do you actually put your vulnerability into action and take away some of the fear around that coming back to bite you, which is our fear, right? If I show vulnerability, someone's going to have a go at me or whatever or see a weakness, and that is in the business sense. So how do you break that down and how do you communicate?
00:15:25
Damien Mu: Yeah. Look, I don't know if I have all the answers here JK, But I'll share my experience and thoughts and insights for what it's worth. So one, I do get hurt and you know I did have this amazing light bulb moment where I worked out I wasn't Superman, Wonder Woman, you know, and I didn't have this impenetrable armor, but I learned that that was OK and I accepted that I wasn't. So that was I think the first thing was facing into it myself and accepting that myself. A lot of the time we impose the thought processes of others on us, and that's really a reflection of our own feeling and security that we haven't accepted yet. So it's easier to externalise and say, oh, that's what people... So I had to face into that. And, you know, I still challenge myself on those things. But the second one is then I guess what I talk very openly and share with the team that I believe leadership is first a privilege and a responsibility. So I'm not shying away from that. In fact, when given command, take charge and lead and do the right thing. So I just share very openly and try to then act that out. So there's a couple of things. One, honor that privilege and responsibility and I'm not going to shy away from that, but I'm not always going to get it right. But that is how I view leadership. The second thing is that in that situation or as the CEO, I am going to have times when I'm going to take charge and lead and I'm not always going to get it right, OK? But, you know, I believe that that's an important element that you need to take charge and lead in certain situations, especially when there is a pandemic and a crisis. There's time for groupthink there are times for collaboration and there are times to step up and take charge and lead. And so I think what the team gets to see and what hopefully everyone gets to see clients, partners, customers, is that I will communicate a position. I will communicate a decision or a view and stand up for that and have the courage of my convictions. But I won't do it in a way that has the arrogance that thinks that mine is the right answer, the only answer is my belief, my view. And if anyone wants to challenge that, I'm open to that. And if anyone can help me, I'm open to that. So I think it is about the most important thing for people to see is words and actions coming together, that congruence. And I just really connect them to two things, your words and actions coming together so that they become real and opening up the head and the heart to be able to communicate together, you know. And then I think the world becomes quite forgiving because no one expects you to be Superman, Wonder Woman, or have all the answers and get it right. But if you can demonstrate, you know, your intent and your authenticity, then I think you can go a long way with it. And so I don't have any fear telling people that, "You know what? I've had a challenging weekend people, you know, wasn't my best, but it's okay." People are supporting.
00:19:00
Sir John Kirwan: I think the interesting thing when I talk to a lot of people who possibly haven't been in a CEO role, they tend to forget that, you know, everyone has doubts. Everyone, you know, goes through those emotional things. I mean, how do you deal with some of those moments when you're sitting there quietly and thinking, what am I doing? You know, what do you actually put into action to say, I'm okay, I need to keep doing this.
00:19:27
Damien Mu: Well, yeah, you have those moments and quite regularly when things like COVID were happening or have been happening, the first one is to just go back to your... So one is, you know, you develop a bit of a toolkit, JK, you know, and that toolkit evolves as you meet people, as you experience life. My first sort of thing is to just sort of going back to a little bit of my micro recoveries and sort of breaking exercises and just think about, practicing that attitude of gratitude again, and perspective. All right, Damien, you're not going to make good, rational decisions, you're not going to get through this if you're operating from a place of feeling overwhelmed, backed into a corner, and operating from fear. So how do I get that, you know, back to that, operating from a place of... and I'll say the word, love, care, how do I get back to feeling grateful for what I have so that I'm actually able to remove and bring down those feelings of feeling overwhelmed and getting some perspective on actually JK, you know what? we've been pretty frickin lucky. I mean, yes, I'm not saying it hasn't been challenging in stage four. But thankfully, you know, when you look at the numbers in Australia and New Zealand and compare that to some of the other places in the world, you know, even... it was still a couple hundred thousand new cases, again in the US, hundreds of thousands of people dying across the world, we've been pretty lucky. So you've got to put it into perspective and you know what? COVID, great but, even without COVID, boy, we've got clean water, we've got food to eat. You know, look, I mean, these basics we take for granted, so you all of a sudden you go, Damien, are you really dealing with the most important thing in the world here mate? Let's get some perspective here mate. You know, you've got kids that are well and healthy. You got water, you got food, some pretty basics that we take for granted. And then all of a sudden, I know it sounds silly, but that's then how, you know, just the weight that sits on your shoulder starts to just ease. And all of a sudden, you can start to think a bit more clearly. You can ground yourself again. You can build up that conviction bucket. And sometimes that's about then having the ability to just ring up and ask for help.
00:22:02
Sir John Kirwan: Tell me... I've spoken to you on a number of occasions, and you've been at times very, very excited about some of the things that COVID has taught us and brought to us. So tell me what you think will survive post-COVID from a business point of view, you know, I remember you saying once that used to jump on an airplane every two days, and then you don't do that. So from a business point of view, what do you think will survive and what are you excited about at the moment?
00:22:32
Damien Mu: So I think what will survive, JK, is that people will hopefully... well, I believe what will survive, and I actually want to make this a personal objective of mine as the CEO, so I'm declaring one of my personal KPIs for next year - A bit of business-speak right now - is not allowing us to come back to work the way we were. So I want to keep and make sure that as an organisation we bring some flexibility to our working lives. I mean yep, we will come to the office to connect, collaborate and, you know, ensure we're performing. But we also want to give people the flexibility and the work-life balance to be able to work from home a couple of days a week because we've proven we can do it full time, pretty much.
00:23:25
Sir John Kirwan: How do you create a team culture through that? Have you thought about OK... Because the trouble is, you know, do we all come to work on Tuesdays and Thursdays so you can actually see everyone, how're you seeing that future?
00:23:41
Damien Mu: Yes. So the first thing is recognising why is it important that we come together and what do we do when we come together? And so for us, it is about that connectivity, which is where we communicate, etc. It is about that collaboration because, you know, people bounce off each other. The ideas, the innovation comes from being... picking up on things like people's energy, building upon each other's ideas, challenging each other. You know, that's not easy to do when everyone's sort of working out, when they can talk, when they should intervene... in a room, it's far more dynamic. So we need that collaboration and then we need you to know, the third reason we come together is to ensure that we are performing and that we are working through what are the things that we need to do to improve performance, etc. But so when... once we know why we're coming to work and then what we want to accomplish, it is about making sure that we have the right forms and the right, I guess, guidance in place. So what we're looking to do is think about how do we make sure that people and teams are coming together. For example, everyone in the team will come together if they're in operations on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, for example, because that's when the team meetings will happen. That's when we'll have collaboration sessions that we'll have whatever. We will have town halls, which will be non-negotiable. So actually, maybe the better way to say JK is, we will have flexibility, but within guidelines and rules, because guess what, it isn't a free fall. And in fact, people want that certainty. So without knowing the answers yet I've actually told the team, let's calm down, let's not try to be crystal ball navigators and predict the future, because that hasn't worked for me too well in the past. Let's try and deal with what we do know and how we can be adaptive and practice be natural. So what we're going to do is two sprints, OK, to use these cool terms these days. And that's just about continuing our survive, revive and thrive plan, and what worked really well was giving people as much certainty and clarity as we could. So we're going to just demystify this whole thing and take the pressure off, stop trying to solve the things we don't know and unknown. And we're going to say we're going to have two sprints. And the first 90 days Sprint is going to be us working in the office, two to three days a week, and the five things that are going to happen around that are, each team is going to work out, so that we can make sure we're COVID safe and practice in the principles and the capacity, etc. on what days they will come in and what days they come out. So people will then know for the first 90 days after the end of January. When we come back from holidays, we've got two days a week we're going to be at home that we can organise our lives around. How cool is that? Right. Like, that's a blessing. We were five days in an office. Now we know for sure we're going to have two or three days. We can organise childcare. We can organise our lives around that. But these days, I'm going to come in. And when I come in, I'm going to connect. I'm going to collaborate and I'm going to perform. And that's what we're going to do because that's... but they're going to have to log on and they're going to have to log off because we still need to know that they're OK and they're connected on those days they're not here. They're going to have to dial into the live streams so we can keep the culture going, you know, but JK, at first we're going to learn a lot. And we're just going to get live feedback from each other and we're going to work under the tenants of purpose-lead leadership, care and demanding, what's working, what's not, adjust some things and go for one more 90-day sprint. And then the world will continue around us and we'll work out what's working for our partners and our customers, what's happening with covid and vaccines and travel. And we'll come up with a second sprint. And at the end of that, that's going to be pretty good timing when you look at the world, they say the end of Q1, Q2, we're going to start to bring back some travel restrictions and others. But by then we would have some great insights and we would have adapted and we would have learned. And then we'll set some you know, we'll set the next sort of ways of working for the next year.
00:28:07
Sir John Kirwan: As Kevin Roberts would say, and we both know KR very well, fail fast, fail fast, and then get on with it.
00:28:19
Damien Mu: This is where you've got to look at it and say, you know, as a leader you want to care, but we can't design for three thousand people and think we're going to get it right. We can't. As much as that would be awesome, It doesn't work, right. It just doesn't work. I mean, we've seen during this period of COVID, it was fine for a little while. But now you know what's happened? People are... the novelty is completely worn off. I mean, even in our Auckland office, you know, we started with only 10 percent back in the office, 20 percent. Now we got up to 65 percent, 70 percent coming back to the office because they want to come to the office. So you can't assume.
00:28:56
Sir John Kirwan: Yeah, but they still want to maybe have Monday or Wednesday off or whatever that looks like.
00:29:00
Damien Mu: Absolutely. When I say come back to the office, it's in that hybrid environment where they've got some days at home, some days in the office.
00:29:09
Sir John Kirwan: Damien, you're Australian-born.
00:29:11
Damien Mu: Yes.
00:29:11
Sir John Kirwan: You're from a large family. You're a first-generation migrant family. How's that impacted you growing up and shaped your values and stuff?
00:29:21
Damien Mu: Oh, immensely, JK. I mean. You know, like your family life, your past, your heritage is so important to who you are and shaping who you are. That doesn't mean you can't evolve and change, but you must... I absolutely believe in the fact that it does shape you. So for me, immensely JK, it did so many things. One, the first thing it taught me was the importance of purpose because my grandmother brought us out here to have a better life. And we all lived in the same house and we all just worked as one unit towards this common goal. It wasn't even really defined or wasn't like a meeting, wasn't on the wall, wasn't in the prospectus or business document. It was just an unspoken dream to give us a better life and left an affluent life in Sri Lanka to do that. I have a Sri Lankan, Chinese, Burmese heritage. And within that, the Sri Lankan part, as you may know, has a Dutch Portuguese English influence through there as well. Solomon's Van Langenberg. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I don't come with any papers, mate. I'm a mutt! You're not going to sell me on the market as a pure-bred. But I'm a proud Aussie and my kids are proud Aussies. And so that was my first lesson about the importance of working towards a common goal and a dream. The second one is hard work so back to the thing when you talk about performance, we weren't going to have a better life, even though we'd made the move from Sri Lanka if we weren't going to work hard. And when I say work hard, actually that's the wrong term, because if it's in service of your dreams, it's not hard work. So there was that. The other thing I learned was just that family, feel the family, the positive team, the importance of family. You know, I got handed around. My mum was working so hard to make sure she had me properly, then she's back at work and my aunt was also my mum and I called her mim because it sounded like mum and my grandmother and my dad and my godfather, everyone just passed around so that sense of family working towards the end goal. When I say family, it is a dysfunctional family because we used to argue every Sunday and we used to come back to my... even once we all moved out and got our own places, every Sunday we would go back to my grandma's for lunch and it'd just be like this massive debate all afternoon. And then everyone's arguing at the end of it, hugging each other and all-around a meal. And then we couldn't wait till next Sunday. I was ridiculous. Even up to the age of twenty-two, twenty-three, that's what I do. Even though I was, you know, partying and playing a sport, I couldn't wait for Sunday afternoon. That was the day. So I got a lot of lessons. The other one JK was one that I probably don't share as often, but I have been talking about a little bit more, which is growing up different. Back then, you know, you didn't recognise it. I mean, I talk about the fact that I didn't. I was sort of a bit naive. I didn't even know it wasn't the colour white until I was about nine or 10. And that was because I had some awesome friends who I grew up with. And it was only really when I was with them and we were making, they were making fun of someone who looked like me. And then one day I looked and said, hang on a second! That person looks like me, that's not cool. That's not right. What's going on here? And so I guess that was my storytelling way of saying I had to deal with a little bit of racism as well. Got called a lot of things on the football field, especially by parents. That's one of the vivid memories I have, is, you know, on the footy field, it wasn't so much the kids, it was sometimes the parents. You know, and they couldn't quite work out what I was either, because I'm a mix-up, so their abuse is quite humorous. They didn't know whether to call me a curry puff or a dim sim, mate!
00:33:46
Sir John Kirwan: So I know that you had an experience with Bailey that you've spoken about too. So, but how do you parent against racism and how do we change this dialogue? Because I think it's fundamental. And when I talk about racism, it might be against religion. So I know you've had a couple of experiences where you've been really solid on some answers and what to do.
00:34:13
Damien Mu: Yeah, look, I mean, again, you know, I'm not saying I have all the answers or anything, but Bailey, my little girl, she's my backpack. So, actually, I don't know if I can call my backpack at the moment. She's switched over to Mum because mum's cool now that she's nine and you know, she's into listening to Shawn Mendes and, you know, suddenly they've discovered nail polish and makeup, you know, she's not allowed to wear em! But yeah, that's right, I said she's not allowed to wear them because she's only nine and we still have to have some rules in the house. But she's edging towards wanting to do all those things. And so we did everything together from the time she's born because, you know, that's how I was brought up. We just sort of, you know, I was a backpack to my parents, but they just had to get on and work and do what they did. So Bailey and I were very close and I'm pretty protective and one day she came home and from kindergarten and said to us, Why am I brown? And I'm like it... what'd you... And then what had happened was these innocent kids, one of them had said to another one, don't hold her hand because she's..... she's brown. And, you know, it breaks your heart. So I said, you know, first I wanted to do is go down there and take care of business. I'm only joking! It just hits you, right? Like you can take it yourself, but when you see one of your kids going through it. And so this was one of those moments where you have to stop the amygdala hijack. you know, the one where your natural reaction is to go "argh!" You know the second one is to actually take an opportunity to change the course of many lives. Because when you step back, it's ignorance and it's not intentional. It's that age, those kids. And so education's the key. And so we celebrated with Bailey our difference and made her feel loved and, you know, and special and perfect for what she is.
00:36:38
Damien Mu: And the other thing was, you know, and we talked about all these people and little things like talking about my sister and all the people she idolised and how they were saying the same. And that was good. And then we spoke to the kindergarten, they were great. And they implemented some education around reading stories about difference and all that. And we got some books and other things. And so, look, at that point in time, it was just about recognising it was an opportunity for education. And the most important thing was for her to feel safe. And helping her to build resilience and recognise that this was going to happen in life, but it was OK.
00:37:22
Sir John Kirwan: What does a good dad look like for you?
00:37:28
Damien Mu: I'm searching. And when I say that, not because of my old man, who is amazing. He's one of my heroes, you know, and he's my stepfather and he raised me and worked two jobs and studied at night to give us that life I talked about. But for me, I'm still searching. I don't know. Look, I just had an experience at the weekend which was quite interesting. My kids must be detecting that I need some cuddles right now because Kai is just really giving me all these really big cuddles at the moment. He's six years old and he's tough as nails this kid. I don't know where he got that from, but he's got super energy and he's strong. Like I mean, you know, he's really full-on, he's got lots of energy, but he's just been giving me lots of cuddles recently and I reckon he's picked up my energy that I've been a bit tired and worn out. And I'm a bit anxious about, you know, how life's going to come back together and you know that you know the weight of the last nine months. But the reason I say that JK, is because I think the best is one that's just present because on the weekend. You know, what I find is, the happiest the kids are is when I'm just present with them doing stuff. And so what is that? That is cooking. That is playing in the backyard. That is going on walks. That is going on bike rides. That is just being with them. And what I found the other thing was, is giving them some one-on-one time. Because they're very different. And what happens is that they so, when I have time, one on one with Kai, it's great because it can just be him being himself. He's not competing with Bailey for attention and vice versa, Bailey, who usually has to give way and they really enjoy that on one time. But it all comes down to being present and the other one is actually just talking to them. They really don't treat them like, you know, yes, they're kids but don't think that means that you have to be baby speak with them, have conversations with them. They're really quite smart and enlightening and they don't carry the baggage. So I don't know what the right one is or what the perfect dad is, I just think it's doing the best you can and being as present as you can.
00:40:00
Sir John Kirwan: What's the biggest lesson fatherhood has given you?
00:40:03
Damien Mu: Perspective. Perspective, you know, I was working, if I'm one hundred and fifty percent now, I was probably 200 percent. Everything was, you know, all or nothing. Everything was going at one hundred, as I said, 200 percent. What fatherhood has taught me is perspective and the importance of being present and engaged and giving me more meaning that there is more than just working hard, there are lives that we're raising, generations that we're building, legacies that we're leaving behind.
00:40:46
Sir John Kirwan: What does post-COVID work-life balance look like for you personally?
00:40:52
Damien Mu: Well, definitely not as many flights. I just, it's not good for my health. So post covid life, I'm going to be kind to myself, self-care is really important. I had to change my belief system a few years back and covid has really reinforced that, which is it's not selfish to care for yourself because actually if you want to serve others, you need to look after yourself and be as healthy as you can be. In fact, the more healthy are, the more productive you are, then the more you can serve others as well. And so I'm going to give myself a little bit more sleep. I'm going to continue to appreciate it. Oh, my gosh, I didn't think I was a nature lover but appreciate nature and this wonderful plan that we have. And I'm going to fly less because it's just not good for your health. And I'm going to continue to do those activities with the kids that create memories. So I think, one of the things that came to me on the weekend as I'm not... being there twenty-four seven isn't going to be the answer to being the perfect dad. Creating memories that help them live their life, their best life, is the best thing I can do. So that when I'm not there, I mean when I'm traveling because I will, they will know what to do. And they'll be able to trust their intuition and their wisdom that they've built through those experiences that we've had together, and their own, it'll help them be the best they can be.
00:42:41
Sir John Kirwan: What are you watching or reading? What do you recommend I watch and read?
00:42:45
Damien Mu: Oh, boy. So interestingly enough, at the moment, I'm not watching a lot of TV or things. I'm obviously, you know, things like your podcast series are really important. And I encourage people to watch these things and Pucker Up, a series on mental health as well. But I'm not watching a lot of TV at the moment. I just don't know why. So I'm sorry I'm not giving you a lot on that. But if I was going to say something, I'd say watch Disney movies, because I've connected as I said, there's three over Christmas that I really went, wow. One was the Wizard of Oz. And I recognise that in corporate life we were... we let ourselves be the Tin Man and we're all really just searching for permission to use our heart. So that's what I call financial services in Australia was like we were the Tin Man, Tin Woman and we were looking on at... and the second one was Aladdin, you know, never forgetting we, you know, we want to find our dreams and do the right thing. So Disney movies are always a great way to connect again with your childhood and life. They've got great meaning and books, again, actually I'm not. I'm reading so much material on, you know, digital transformations and all this stuff. It's great. But you know what I do, actually, I'm reading a Jack Reacher Novel, do you know why? I have to... My favorite reading when I'm not reading something around self-development, you know, like even KR's books, sixty-four shots, and other great things to give you food for the soul. I like to just switch off and relax when I read. It's my relaxation. So sorry mate, I haven't got any others.
00:44:48
Sir John Kirwan: I do a bit of Jack Reacher, I'm the same. That's very interesting when you're talking about, you know, parenting. One of the things, I used to go away a lot with rugby and one of the things I used to do was when I got back, it was daddy's day and the kids got to choose and invariably went to the movies and ate a whole lot of popcorn and a lot of Coca-Cola, but I watched every kid's movie. I used to absolutely love them. So I know what you're saying about creating those experiences because when you look back in your life, it is those moments where you did something and it's not daredevil stuff. It might be something as simple as a movie, you know. So tell me, who would you like me to interview next?
00:45:30
Damien Mu: Who would I like you to interview next? Have you interviewed Jacinda yet?
00:45:36
Sir John Kirwan: I'm trying. I've been in touch. So, she's agreed to come on the podcast. So I'm just trying to... obviously, she's way too busy for me at the moment, but hopefully, she'll sit down. I mean, she's an amazing lady. I'm really intrigued to see how she deals with a whole lot of different stuff. So I'll keep chasing.
00:45:55
Damien Mu: Yeah, I think people are really keen to, you know, I mean, when we look at leadership during this time, I think, you know, Jacinda's displayed some great leadership and it would be interesting to see the elements of care and demanding because, you know, she's got to care for people, but she also has to ensure that the country performs and is productive and can grow its economy so it would be interesting understand those things.
00:46:23
Sir John Kirwan: I think for me too Damien, I mean, like when I talk to you, you know, you are always talking about leadership through caring. But I don't... I think it's a new way of leading. And so I think when you talk about Jacinda, and I love talking to you because whenever I talk to you, I'm inspired. And, you know, you are thinking outside the square about how we are going to get rid of this work-life balance and just have a life that's complete with work or home or whatever that looks like. So, mate, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. It's always a pleasure. I always walk away energised. And I know that life is busy. So I really appreciate you spending the time with me. And it's been great. Thank you.
00:47:07
Damien Mu: Well, thank you mate/ And thanks for your friendship and support and your leadership during this time. You know, you're not going to... you might cringe a little bit when I say this, but I think, you know, our purpose is to make a difference and you have made a phenomenal difference to hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions, when you look at the reach you've had during this time to help them have someone they can connect with or whether it's through your programs or your podcasts so thank you and thank you for checking in on me and me feeling like I've got a friend and a brother. So thanks very much for that. I really appreciate it.
00:47:46
Sir John Kirwan: No problem mate. Our job is to do this together, right? The world will be a place, hopefully, when we come out at the other end of this covid because it's taught us a few basics to put our mental health first, to be more open and honest, that there is for me, there is life, there is not work. I don't want to be lying on my deathbed and looking back at my life and thinking, gee, I wish I had made more friends at work or I wish I'd have been more honest. So I think we're pretty aligned there, but it's been a pleasure and we'll see you soon, in person. We'll be able to give you a big hug finally.
00:48:21
Damien Mu: Oh mate, can't wait for that! You bet, see you mate, take care.
00:48:22
Sir John Kirwan: See you, bye.
00:48:29
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Open Minded, if you like the podcast, make sure to subscribe. This podcast is everywhere you get your podcast, so make sure you do that. I don't need to tell you how, and then you'll get my new episodes straight away. And if you can leave a review, tell everyone you know about it, it would be awesome if you could help spread the word about the show. Thanks. But also, I'd love to get your feedback. You know, I'm new to this. I want to get better and I want to know what you want to know about mental well-being. So please reach out to us. And thanks. And I'll see you also.